Ed Friedman: Hello, I'm Ed Friedman. I'm looking for Murray Bowen. Have you seen him?

St. Peter: Yes, Murray is over there in his office behind the door marked with the "square."

EF: Thank you. (Ed goes over and knocks on the door.)

Murray Bowen: Come in. Ed, Ed Friedman, is that you? What the hell are you doing here? I didn't expect to see you this soon.

EF: I hadn't expected it either, what with the book and all. It seems to take so long. This undifferentiated editing is unbelievable. And those undifferentiated publishers still can't understand emotional process!!!

MB: I hear it. I'm listening to you, Ed.

EF: It has been six years, Murray, almost to the day. How have you been?

MB: Good, Ed, good. I've been able to do more thinking about my ninth concept on a systems concept of spiritual phenomena. This has been a wonderful setting in which to do my thinking. It sure beats those libraries.

EF: Yeah, I know it. I sometimes thought I was born in one.

MB: Ed, do you know this guy writing about us?

EF: Well, Murray, he has read your stuff and seen you on video tape, and he has been at my place in Bethesda for a few years. It's probably something he needed to do. Something about me stirring up self in him.

MB: Ed, you have a way of doing that.

EF: I learned from one of the best.

MB: So, Ed, six years, huh?

EF: Yeah, there was so much more of the theory to work on, especially as it relates to leadership.

MB: Ed, I've been listening to what you've been doing with the theory. Some good thinking there, although I haven't always agreed.

EF: Did we ever always agree?

MB: No! Have a seat, Ed. Care for a cough drop?

EF: Murray, you're going to choke on those things one of these days!

MB: Ed, we haven't always agreed, but your thinking about larger systems has certainly shown how the theory can be applied. I'm fascinated by what people can do with the theory.

EF: Yeah, but much of the social sciences still can't hear it Murray. Their monocular view still focuses on data and specifics. It's as though what their eyes can't see their ears can't hear. They miss the universals, the bigger picture.

MB: Ed, it's becoming more apparent that my theory is going in the other direction from other theories and therapies.

EF: Well, you know what Columbus accomplished by going in the other direction.

MB: Yeah, I've watched your maps presentation from above the field. You're right, Ed, it's the only way to get unstuck. Differentiated leadership is the key.

EF: I see it Murray. Emotional process runs deep, and I think the only way people can hear it is when they're willing to work it in their own family of origin.

MB: I'm listening to you, Ed.

EF: It's been intriguing to me how people have wanted to model themselves after us. Almost as if they wanted to be a clone.

MB: How in the world would you explain that? They seem to miss the whole process of differentiation.

EF: Well, they've got to start somewhere.

MB: Then let 'em start in their own damn family of origin, and work it until they get it. It's the best resource they'll ever have.

EF: And it's free!

MB: Ed, it's good to see you've retained your sense of humor.

EF: Yeah, it's fun! The smartest thing I ever did was to be stupid when people were looking for the expert. Things seem to shift more readily. But Murray, I talked about playfulness and people got deadly serious about becoming playful. Humor became serious--what a paradox!

MB: Well, playfulness touches people on a deep level. I've always liked the one you told about the "country hick" outwitting the "city slicker."

EF: You got me every time, Murray.

MB: Ed, what is your thinking about where the theory is going? Are people hearing it?

EF: Some are, but like I said only if they work it in their family of origin. There are people doing some good thinking, though. And yet there are societal pressures moving towards regression. It's going to take leadership from the next generation.

MB: Well, I may be dead but I refuse to cut off. I'm going to stay connected, somehow.

EF: At least in theory, Murray, at least in theory.

MB: Ed, do you think it was all worth it?

EF: What do you mean? After all I learned from you, are you second guessing it now?

MB: No, but I was thinking about how when something becomes popular it loses its power. Kind of like when people first heard about my scale of differentiation, they wanted copies of it. They wanted to know how it was scored, etc.

EF: Oh, I don't think it will ever become popular.

MB: What do you mean, Ed?

EF: I think there will always be those who become reactive. I saw it in conferences and workshops all across the country. Self is scary to those with no self. It may take the reversal of all reversals to get unstuck. Otherwise, the stuckness remains, and family therapy may be the most stuck of all.

MB: And people used to say I was pessimistic and hard to get close to.

EF: Well, only those who wanted to fuse with you. The rest of us knew what it was about. It's kind of like my fable of "The Bridge." People want others to be responsible for them rather than be responsible for self.

MB: Well, Ed, you've always said that people can expect sabotage when they're making a differentiating move.

EF: Yes, and I'll take that one with me to my grave!

MB: Ed!!! I can't believe...

EF: Come on Murray, you haven't lost your sense of humor have you?

MB: Ed, can't you ever be serious?

EF: Oh, I'm deadly serious.

MB: Ed!!! This guy writing about us is going to quote this stuff and people are going to say we're sacrilegious and irreverent.

EF: Murray, I've fought for irreverence most of my life, especially when people wanted me to be serious and reverent.

MB: Now you're being ambiguous.

EF: I've fought for that, too.

MB: In theory.

EF: And in reality.

MB: It's a challenge!

EF: That's what I've been trying to get across--challenge. It's how the immune system grows. It's how self grows. To think emotional process is to move in a differentiated way. It's all about challenge!

MB: Ed, I'm listening to you.

EF: Murray, my aim was always for clarity. If nothing else that's what I discerned from all three systems I was involved in--politics, religion, and psychotherapy. But even after more than thirty years I didn't see but a "mitsar" amount of change.

MB: Well, it will take a few generations, Ed.

EF: You know, Murray, I've only been here a short time but I don't see much overfunctioning around here. Even St. Peter seems to have calmed down. I always said God wasn't an overfunctioner. But this is so different. Have you been teaching them about non-anxious presence?

MB: You read my hand, Ed. But you know, the worst thing you can do is try to convert others to your way of thinking.

EF: That's my line!

MB: Process over content, Ed, process over content.

EF: I've always tried to make statements and ask questions based on theory. I found by couching theory in other terms people hear it.

MB: I'm listening to you, Ed. My major task was to try to simplify the language. But I know even then it didn't always get heard.

EF: You're right Murray. But by getting on the other side of all the madness it does get heard.

MB: Ed, I heard about your interview with the first family counselor. It was outrageous! You captured my idea of paradox beautifully. I died laughing!

EF: Murray!!!

MB: See, Ed, I've still got my sense of humor.

EF: That whole interview was a reversal.

MB: Yeah, and it contained more theory than a lot of other writings on theory. Frankly, I was a little surprised at the response it got up here, but I understand God especially enjoyed it.

EF: It has been fun being devilish. But more than fun, it has brought challenge to people. And challenge brings growth.

MB: That is an accurate way of putting it, Ed.

EF: Well, the "other side" is the place to get to. I knew if I could get there it would loosen things up and move things along in systems.

MB: Now you're there, Ed.

EF: What do you mean Murray?

MB: The other side. You're on the other side.

EF: Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way. I am on the other side now. Maybe even more will loosen up. It's what I spent my life working toward. And now I'm on the other side.

MB: Is it all you expected?

EF: Well, it's a little early. I'm not sure the video equipment works any better up here. But on a process level, only time will tell.

MB: But Ed, there is no time up here.

EF: You mean it's always process?

MB: Always process!

EF: Murray, do you have any idea where my office will be?

MB: It's upstairs, Ed. Why?

EF: I have some ideas for a new fables book I want to get started on.

MB: What do you think you'll call it?

EF: Well, I'm thinking about, "A View of the Other Side--From the Other Side."

MB: Sounds confusing.

EF: Process over content, Murray. By the way, when do we eat around here?

MB: Well, the first day they bring it in. Thereafter, you're on your own.

EF: Well, maybe on the other side some things don't change.

MB: I sense a fable coming on.

EF: Murray, it has been a long day. I think this guy writing about us has enough material. And besides, we've got an eternity to work on process. I'm going to get a little rest.

MB: Ed, they are going to miss you. You've made a wonderful contribution to the theory.

EF: Well, some will miss me. We've missed you, Murray. But it's time for the next generation to make their contribution to the theory.

MB: The torch must get passed on.

EF: Yes, generation to generation.

MB: Amen, Ed!

 

MORAL: A change of scene does not change one's character.

 

Some questions to ask yourself:

1. How long will it take before Ed and Murray "always agree"?

2. How do you get on the other side of issues?

3. What is the other side for you?

4. How do you retain a sense of humor and playfulness in the face of loss?

5. How does emotional process work in eternity?

6. If a person goes far enough in the opposite direction can he meet himself coming and going?

7. Could both of these mentors continue to challenge us?

8. How did these two characters stir up self in you?

9. When will the social sciences ever "get it"?

10. How will you carry the torch in your generation?

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